-- Contributed by Sarika Arya and Meredith Morrison
Today, the two of us sat down with Dr. Boutros Boutros Ghali (DR. BBG), the 6th Secretary General of the United Nations (January 1992- January 1997) and the current President of the National Council for Human Rights (NCHR) in Egypt. The three of us were alone on the 11th floor of the NCHR building (once the former headquarters of the Egyptian Communist Party), in his office: an intimate square room adorned with medals, certificates, books, a beautiful wooden desk, and golden curtains that drape a window overlooking the Nile River. Dr. Boutros Boutros Ghali wore an off-white linen suit, squinted his eyes, thinking hard before he answered every question, and despite his calm, soft spoken nature and 5' 5'' stature, was still able to command the room with his well-articulated and sharp opinions. In this historical, political, and all together human rights-y setting, we talked about Barack Obama, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the best part of being Secretary General.
Q: How do you define human rights?
DR. BBG: I believe it is related to the essence of men and women – by the fact that they exist, they have basic rights. And these basic rights, which correspond to their nature, their personality, we call them human rights. By the way – human rights is a continuous process; it means every year we may have new technological inventions and new problems, which are different – like the problem of climate – and this asks us to take into consideration drastic change and the fact that this change asks us to have new human rights which correspond to this new change in the public life, in the climatic life.
Q: What are the challenges of being a quasi-governmental organization that does human rights work – rather than being an NGO – as far as the NCHR is concerned?
DR. BBG: This was decided by the United Nations, which met in a summit meeting, which was held in Vienna in 1993 and then later in other meetings, in which they asked the different member states to create national commissions to take care of and promote human rights, to promote the culture of human rights, and to assist the governments. And those commissions have only an advisory opinion. They cannot intervene; their intervention is solely in declaration.
Q: Do you think human rights are a top priority for governments? If not, how can that change?
DR. BBG: I think it depends on governments. Certain governments, for them, it is a priority; other countries have other problems. For example, illiteracy, which is, in certain countries, 50% of the population, or deep poverty – so the priority will be to overcome this illiteracy, to overcome poverty, and only then they will move to a second step, which is to protect human rights. So it depends on different governments, and it depends on different periods.
During the Cold War, the United Nations was not paying attention to human rights, and they began to pay attention to human rights and the relationship between human rights and democracy only after the end of the Cold War. But because of the Cold War, it was very difficult to make a relation between democracy and human rights, so we had more than 50% of the countries who were members of the United Nations, which did not have democratic systems, and the United Nations was not involved in promoting democracy. Because if you remember Article 2, Paragraph 7 of the Charter, it mentions that the United Nations is not allowed to interfere in the internal affairs of member states.
Q: What do you think is the relationship between democracy and human rights?
DR. BBG: Oh, there is a big correlation: we cannot have human rights without a democratic system, and we cannot have a democratic system with the protection of human rights. They are integrated together. Democracy is the system which will protect human rights.
Q: How do politics influence human rights – not only in Egypt, but also in the Middle East as a whole?
DR. BBG: I believe this is not limited to the Middle East, or to Egypt; it is seen in all parts of the world. If you have a military coup d’etat in Country A, he will not pay attention to human rights; he will just pay attention to how to reinforce his position after the military coup. Politics is related to democracy; democracy is related to human rights; human rights and democracy are related to economic development. So there is a kind of implication between those three different concepts.
Q: In your opinion, what is the greatest humanitarian concern facing Egypt today?
DR. BBG: I believe that you have many problems. First, you have a very high proportion of the population who are illiterate, so this is a concern. Secondly, that a high proportion of the population is very poor; this is a second concern. And a third concern is that the population, the 80 million Egyptians, are concentrated in only 4-5% of the territory; 95% of the territory is a desert. So how can we accomplish improvement? We need additional water and food. There is no rain in this part of the world, so this is related to the Nile Basin, and the possibility of having better cooperation between the different countries of the Nile Basin.
Q: What do you think is the greatest obstacle standing in the way of protecting human rights around the world?
DR. BBG: Again, you have not one obstacle; it depends. Supposing you have a military coup – the effect, the absence or the end of the democratic regime, is a basic obstacle here. In another country, you may have, suddenly, a terrible earthquake, and this would be the main concern. In a third country, you can have a new disease. Today, you can have the economic crisis. So you have not one obstacle. It depends on the period; it depends on the country; it depends on many elements.
Q: Can you recall an interesting story during your time as Secretary General, in which you learned something about human rights – positive or negative?
DR. BBG: I believe that what was important was the conference that was held in Vienna in 1993. There, for the first time, we were able to discuss the problem of human rights, to give a new dimension to human rights, and to show the importance of the relation between democracy and human rights. Because before there was a kind of division: democracy was related to the internal affairs of the state, so the United Nations was not allowed to intervene in the internal affairs of the state, and you had many countries which were not democratic countries. Change happened only in 1993, when we were at the end of the Cold War, and when we were able to show the profound relation between democracy and human rights.
Q: What was the best part about being Secretary General of the UN?
DR. BBG: It means you are able to succeed in an operation, like to put an end to apartheid in South Africa, and to find a solution to civil war in Mozambique or in El Salvador. This gives you a real satisfaction, that you have been able to achieve something. You may certainly have a disaster, like in Yugoslavia, and like the genocide in Rwanda, and then it is a failure. So the life is composed of success and failure. And what is important is in the case of the failure, you must still be an optimist, and in case of success, you must not exaggerate the importance of this success.
Q: What did the genocide in Rwanda teach you about the tension between intervening in the internal affairs of a country and protecting human rights?
DR. BBG: It taught me that the international community was not interested to intervene, and then that you have two kinds of conflicts. You have what I call the orphan conflicts, where the international society is not interested to intervene. Take the case of Somalia, a country which disappeared, which is a failed state, since 1990, and we are now in 2009. And you have another country, where suddenly everybody pays attention; in Yugoslavia, for example. So the real problem is that you have a kind of discrimination at the world level, between a dispute which attracts the public opinion, which obtained the intervention of the international community, and a dispute that doesn’t interest the international community, in which the international community is not ready to intervene to solve this dispute. So here again you have a kind of discrimination concerning the attitude of the international community concerning protecting international disputes, where disputes which obtain the mediation of the international community, the intervention of the United Nations, and other disputes, which, unfortunately, don’t obtain the attention of the international community and don’t obtain the intervention of the international community.
Q: Why do some cases get international attention and others don’t? What is the difference between a Yugoslavia and a Somalia?
DR. BBG: I believe that there still is a discrimination, that they pay attention to what is going on in Europe, and they pay less attention to what is going on in Africa. Still, there are, in the public mentality, first class countries and second class countries.
Q: What is your feeling about President Obama? Do you have faith in him to make progress in the Middle East peace process?
DR. BBG: I cannot give you any answer before one year.
Q: What were your thoughts on his speech that he gave in Cairo?
DR. BBG: I was there, and I was very much impressed by the speech, but as I mention, it is only a speech.
Q: How do you see the peace process moving forward, as far as Israel and Palestine are concerned?
DR. BBG: I am pessimist, maybe because of my age, because I have spent 50 years of my life trying to solve this problem, and I believe that this problem will not be solved during this generation. I have published a book, which is now adapted, with the president of Israel – Shimon Peres – and at the end of the book, which is a conversation of 20 hours, I mention: like Moses, and like Sadat, I will not see the Promised Lands.
Q: What would you recommend that we do, as students who study this and put all of our time into this?
DR. BBG: I believe that it is very important to pay attention to foreign affairs, because we will be confronted in the next years, in the next 10 years, in the next 20 years, by new events – what I call globalization – where the local problem will not be solved at the local level; it will be solved at the international level. So you who represent the young generation, you must pay attention to foreign affairs. Foreign affairs is what happens in Guatemala and Somalia, what happens in Mongolia. And try to open the window so that your country, the United States, will be more involved in international affairs. This is not only for the United States, but for all of the member states, because tomorrow, certain local problems will not be solved at the local level, but will be solved at the international level. So if you want to avoid that the solution will be imposed on you, then you have to participate in the solution of this problem, and the solution of this problem is an international solution. And to be able to be able to participate in an international solution, you need to pay attention to foreign affairs. You need this kind of education. The time that you spend here for one or two months is already a first step to help you pay attention to what is going on in Africa, in Egypt, in India, in different parts of the world. And this is my message to the young generation.
Today, the two of us sat down with Dr. Boutros Boutros Ghali (DR. BBG), the 6th Secretary General of the United Nations (January 1992- January 1997) and the current President of the National Council for Human Rights (NCHR) in Egypt. The three of us were alone on the 11th floor of the NCHR building (once the former headquarters of the Egyptian Communist Party), in his office: an intimate square room adorned with medals, certificates, books, a beautiful wooden desk, and golden curtains that drape a window overlooking the Nile River. Dr. Boutros Boutros Ghali wore an off-white linen suit, squinted his eyes, thinking hard before he answered every question, and despite his calm, soft spoken nature and 5' 5'' stature, was still able to command the room with his well-articulated and sharp opinions. In this historical, political, and all together human rights-y setting, we talked about Barack Obama, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the best part of being Secretary General.
Q: How do you define human rights?
DR. BBG: I believe it is related to the essence of men and women – by the fact that they exist, they have basic rights. And these basic rights, which correspond to their nature, their personality, we call them human rights. By the way – human rights is a continuous process; it means every year we may have new technological inventions and new problems, which are different – like the problem of climate – and this asks us to take into consideration drastic change and the fact that this change asks us to have new human rights which correspond to this new change in the public life, in the climatic life.
Q: What are the challenges of being a quasi-governmental organization that does human rights work – rather than being an NGO – as far as the NCHR is concerned?
DR. BBG: This was decided by the United Nations, which met in a summit meeting, which was held in Vienna in 1993 and then later in other meetings, in which they asked the different member states to create national commissions to take care of and promote human rights, to promote the culture of human rights, and to assist the governments. And those commissions have only an advisory opinion. They cannot intervene; their intervention is solely in declaration.
Q: Do you think human rights are a top priority for governments? If not, how can that change?
DR. BBG: I think it depends on governments. Certain governments, for them, it is a priority; other countries have other problems. For example, illiteracy, which is, in certain countries, 50% of the population, or deep poverty – so the priority will be to overcome this illiteracy, to overcome poverty, and only then they will move to a second step, which is to protect human rights. So it depends on different governments, and it depends on different periods.
During the Cold War, the United Nations was not paying attention to human rights, and they began to pay attention to human rights and the relationship between human rights and democracy only after the end of the Cold War. But because of the Cold War, it was very difficult to make a relation between democracy and human rights, so we had more than 50% of the countries who were members of the United Nations, which did not have democratic systems, and the United Nations was not involved in promoting democracy. Because if you remember Article 2, Paragraph 7 of the Charter, it mentions that the United Nations is not allowed to interfere in the internal affairs of member states.
Q: What do you think is the relationship between democracy and human rights?
DR. BBG: Oh, there is a big correlation: we cannot have human rights without a democratic system, and we cannot have a democratic system with the protection of human rights. They are integrated together. Democracy is the system which will protect human rights.
Q: How do politics influence human rights – not only in Egypt, but also in the Middle East as a whole?
DR. BBG: I believe this is not limited to the Middle East, or to Egypt; it is seen in all parts of the world. If you have a military coup d’etat in Country A, he will not pay attention to human rights; he will just pay attention to how to reinforce his position after the military coup. Politics is related to democracy; democracy is related to human rights; human rights and democracy are related to economic development. So there is a kind of implication between those three different concepts.
Q: In your opinion, what is the greatest humanitarian concern facing Egypt today?
DR. BBG: I believe that you have many problems. First, you have a very high proportion of the population who are illiterate, so this is a concern. Secondly, that a high proportion of the population is very poor; this is a second concern. And a third concern is that the population, the 80 million Egyptians, are concentrated in only 4-5% of the territory; 95% of the territory is a desert. So how can we accomplish improvement? We need additional water and food. There is no rain in this part of the world, so this is related to the Nile Basin, and the possibility of having better cooperation between the different countries of the Nile Basin.
Q: What do you think is the greatest obstacle standing in the way of protecting human rights around the world?
DR. BBG: Again, you have not one obstacle; it depends. Supposing you have a military coup – the effect, the absence or the end of the democratic regime, is a basic obstacle here. In another country, you may have, suddenly, a terrible earthquake, and this would be the main concern. In a third country, you can have a new disease. Today, you can have the economic crisis. So you have not one obstacle. It depends on the period; it depends on the country; it depends on many elements.
Q: Can you recall an interesting story during your time as Secretary General, in which you learned something about human rights – positive or negative?
DR. BBG: I believe that what was important was the conference that was held in Vienna in 1993. There, for the first time, we were able to discuss the problem of human rights, to give a new dimension to human rights, and to show the importance of the relation between democracy and human rights. Because before there was a kind of division: democracy was related to the internal affairs of the state, so the United Nations was not allowed to intervene in the internal affairs of the state, and you had many countries which were not democratic countries. Change happened only in 1993, when we were at the end of the Cold War, and when we were able to show the profound relation between democracy and human rights.
Q: What was the best part about being Secretary General of the UN?
DR. BBG: It means you are able to succeed in an operation, like to put an end to apartheid in South Africa, and to find a solution to civil war in Mozambique or in El Salvador. This gives you a real satisfaction, that you have been able to achieve something. You may certainly have a disaster, like in Yugoslavia, and like the genocide in Rwanda, and then it is a failure. So the life is composed of success and failure. And what is important is in the case of the failure, you must still be an optimist, and in case of success, you must not exaggerate the importance of this success.
Q: What did the genocide in Rwanda teach you about the tension between intervening in the internal affairs of a country and protecting human rights?
DR. BBG: It taught me that the international community was not interested to intervene, and then that you have two kinds of conflicts. You have what I call the orphan conflicts, where the international society is not interested to intervene. Take the case of Somalia, a country which disappeared, which is a failed state, since 1990, and we are now in 2009. And you have another country, where suddenly everybody pays attention; in Yugoslavia, for example. So the real problem is that you have a kind of discrimination at the world level, between a dispute which attracts the public opinion, which obtained the intervention of the international community, and a dispute that doesn’t interest the international community, in which the international community is not ready to intervene to solve this dispute. So here again you have a kind of discrimination concerning the attitude of the international community concerning protecting international disputes, where disputes which obtain the mediation of the international community, the intervention of the United Nations, and other disputes, which, unfortunately, don’t obtain the attention of the international community and don’t obtain the intervention of the international community.
Q: Why do some cases get international attention and others don’t? What is the difference between a Yugoslavia and a Somalia?
DR. BBG: I believe that there still is a discrimination, that they pay attention to what is going on in Europe, and they pay less attention to what is going on in Africa. Still, there are, in the public mentality, first class countries and second class countries.
Q: What is your feeling about President Obama? Do you have faith in him to make progress in the Middle East peace process?
DR. BBG: I cannot give you any answer before one year.
Q: What were your thoughts on his speech that he gave in Cairo?
DR. BBG: I was there, and I was very much impressed by the speech, but as I mention, it is only a speech.
Q: How do you see the peace process moving forward, as far as Israel and Palestine are concerned?
DR. BBG: I am pessimist, maybe because of my age, because I have spent 50 years of my life trying to solve this problem, and I believe that this problem will not be solved during this generation. I have published a book, which is now adapted, with the president of Israel – Shimon Peres – and at the end of the book, which is a conversation of 20 hours, I mention: like Moses, and like Sadat, I will not see the Promised Lands.
Q: What would you recommend that we do, as students who study this and put all of our time into this?
DR. BBG: I believe that it is very important to pay attention to foreign affairs, because we will be confronted in the next years, in the next 10 years, in the next 20 years, by new events – what I call globalization – where the local problem will not be solved at the local level; it will be solved at the international level. So you who represent the young generation, you must pay attention to foreign affairs. Foreign affairs is what happens in Guatemala and Somalia, what happens in Mongolia. And try to open the window so that your country, the United States, will be more involved in international affairs. This is not only for the United States, but for all of the member states, because tomorrow, certain local problems will not be solved at the local level, but will be solved at the international level. So if you want to avoid that the solution will be imposed on you, then you have to participate in the solution of this problem, and the solution of this problem is an international solution. And to be able to be able to participate in an international solution, you need to pay attention to foreign affairs. You need this kind of education. The time that you spend here for one or two months is already a first step to help you pay attention to what is going on in Africa, in Egypt, in India, in different parts of the world. And this is my message to the young generation.
